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<p>Hi Pranciškus</p>
<p>I see you've uploaded most of my plugs already. As a note, there
is now a donation link for my work which you may implement.</p>
<p><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://paypal.me/brummer1010">https://paypal.me/brummer1010</a></p>
<p>regards</p>
<p>hermann<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 10.03.23 um 14:53 schrieb Pranciškus
Jansas:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAEpiV=TUMtmr0dCooFQScsG+Nu12qDQZuZxy9Fqq3vxCzngGqw@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="ltr">Hi David,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your extensive input!<br>
<br>
So, as the interest in this topic is low, we are moving forward
with our initial plan - to cover our project requirements first.<br>
If there is more interest or additional projects in need of a
plugin cloud solution, we will be more than happy to
dedicate more resources to it, but we can't tackle the whole
scope all at once
alone.<br>
<br>
To note, all already uploaded plugins have links to their source
code, and donate flow is active if we manage to find a
related donate URL (e.g., <a
href="https://patchstorage.com/instrument-tuner/"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://patchstorage.com/instrument-tuner/</a>).
We are populating all the info ourselves, but PRs are welcome - <a
href="https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-lv2-uploader/blob/main/plugins.json"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-lv2-uploader/blob/main/plugins.json</a>.
The build and publish guide is here - <a
href="https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-docs/wiki/Platform:-LV2-Plugins"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-docs/wiki/Platform:-LV2-Plugins</a>.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We already see the Patchstorage LV2 section rising on
Google and we will announce the Patchstorage LV2 section and
the corresponding MODEP update officially next week. Let's see
where it goes from there.</div>
<div><br>
If anyone has any questions, concerns, or suggestions, just
reach out to me. And if someone wants to change how their
plugin is presented on Patchstorage, let me know too.<br>
<br>
Thank you! Have a great weekend!</div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">Pranciškus Jansas<br>
Team Player at Blokas<br>
<a href="https://blokas.io" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">blokas.io</a><br>
<a href="https://community.blokas.io" target="_blank"
moz-do-not-send="true">community.blokas.io</a><br>
<p><img src="https://blokas.io/logo.png" alt="Blokas"
moz-do-not-send="true" width="28" height="28"></p>
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If you are not the intended recipient, you are kindly
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<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at
6:36 PM David Robillard <<a href="mailto:d@drobilla.net"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">d@drobilla.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On
Thu, 2023-01-26 at 22:21 +0200, Pranciškus Jansas wrote:<br>
> Hello LV2 Community!<br>
> Pranciškus from Blokas/Patchstorage here. Hermann Meyer
suggested<br>
> reaching out here.<br>
> Let me begin by expressing our team's gratitude for all
of your work<br>
> that helped us bring projects like Pisound and Patchbox
OS to life<br>
> that heavily relies on the LV2 ecosystem.<br>
> I am reaching out because we are in the midst of
finalizing<br>
> <a href="https://patchstorage.com" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://patchstorage.com</a>
support for LV2 plugins, and I would like to<br>
> have a discussion with you all.<br>
> Although the initial idea for this integration came from
the need to<br>
> decouple plugin builds from Patchbox OS releases in the
context of<br>
> the MOD stack, with help from other MOD-based projects,
we reached a<br>
> state that could benefit the entire LV2 ecosystem.<br>
> What we have with Patchstorage now is a proof-of-concept
system that<br>
> allows:<br>
> * LV2 plugin developers to build their plugins for
different<br>
> platforms locally.<br>
> * Publish/update multi-platform plugins to Patchstorage
via CLI<br>
> utility.<br>
> * For new/existing projects like MOD-UI, integrate
Patchstorage as a<br>
> plugin cloud solution via Patchstorage API.<br>
> * For end-users to explore, download, rate, comment on
plugins, and<br>
> subscribe to new plugin notifications. Also, having a
centralized LV2<br>
> library would highly increase the visibility of the
entire LV2<br>
> standard (SEO, spill-over effect from other platforms
hosted on<br>
> Patchstorage, 23k MAU last month).<br>
> * For plugin developers to communicate directly with
their users and<br>
> get donations from them (via any 3rd-party service).
Later on, we<br>
> could implement Bandcamp-style “pay what you like” model.<br>
> You can find more info here -<br>
> <a
href="https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-docs/wiki/Platform:-LV2-Plugins"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://github.com/patchstorage/patchstorage-docs/wiki/Platform:-LV2-Plugins</a><br>
> .<br>
> We are at the stage where we can start populating the LV2
section on<br>
> the site, but before doing so, we would like to discuss
with you what<br>
> would be the best way to move forward:<br>
> * Would such kind of single LV2 library/index be
beneficial from<br>
> your point of view? What aspects/features would be most
appreciated<br>
> by plugin developers?<br>
<br>
I'm not really a plugin developer in any real sense aside from
a few<br>
very conservative ports, but since nobody else has weighed in
yet,<br>
here's my two cents:<br>
<br>
The ability to easily download working LV2 plugin binaries
certainly<br>
seems useful for users. I don't know about developers; it
depends,<br>
really. A lot of FLOSS developers just don't deal with binary<br>
distribution whatsoever, and LV2 is no different there. Most
are used<br>
to packagers being other people, most commonly, OS
distributions.<br>
<br>
The site seems more suited to sharing presets at first glance,
which is<br>
a different thing from plugins themselves, and has a much
lower barrier<br>
of entry. LV2 presets are, for the most part, just portable
data that<br>
doesn't have any of these binary issues, and any user can save
and<br>
share one pretty easily.<br>
<br>
> * In your opinion, would the plugin developers be
willing to build<br>
> and upload plugins themselves? If not, could there be
concerns if we<br>
> upload plugins ourselves, of course giving the credit for
authors and<br>
> linking to their project pages?<br>
<br>
You're legally free to do whatever the licenses say you are,
but sure,<br>
without halfway decent credit and links to upstream projects
and such<br>
you'll generate a ton of bad will.<br>
<br>
The trouble with uploading builds is that doing builds
appropriate for<br>
binary distribution, especially on Linux, is hard. If you
provide<br>
tooling of some sort that makes this easy and hard to screw up
(e.g. a<br>
standard toolchain, verifying that things aren't linked to
some shared<br>
library that might not be present, etc), that would be useful
to<br>
developers.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, it's effectively just another place that one could
upload<br>
something, after doing a bunch of work (that they're probably
not doing<br>
already)? That means an incentive is probably needed to make
anyone<br>
particularly care. If there's a wider userbase, and some kind
of<br>
financial incentive like a donation system or whatever, I
imagine that<br>
would provide some incentive for many, but everyone's
different. Some<br>
people are into providing portable binaries in general, some
are happy<br>
with releasing source code that makes its way into traditional<br>
distributions, some don't care at all. Some care about a
wider<br>
userbase and/or better direct communication with the userbase,
some not<br>
at all. Some wish they could make some money off of their
plugin work,<br>
some not at all. Some care about Windows and MacOS, some not
at all<br>
(or are actively hostile to the idea), etc.<br>
<br>
Your uploader tool, patchstorage-lv2-uploader, has "Tested on
Windows<br>
only" in its README, which is... not a good look. Meanwhile,
the<br>
builder tool requires a "Linux or Mac OS" based computer.
That also<br>
seems to be a huge meta-project of vendored things, without
any clear<br>
instructions on how one might build their own plugin, if this
is even<br>
possible. I think if you want people to upload binaries, it
has to be<br>
as simple as possible and very clear how to do so.<br>
<br>
> * Regarding builds and targets - we have quite clear
requirements<br>
> for the MOD stack projects, and currently, the builder
supports<br>
> x86_64, raspberrypi3_armv8, raspberrypi4_aarch64
platforms. Having<br>
> said that, Patchstorage could support a different
packaging option<br>
> for other targets as well. From your experience, is it
practically<br>
> feasible to provide packaged plugins built for different<br>
> targets/platforms (in single digits) that would cover at
least 70% of<br>
> end-user needs? I am not that familiar with all the Linux
packaging<br>
> and dependencies nuances and don’t know what architecture
and Linux<br>
> distro combinations are the most popular.<br>
<br>
The only way to distribute binary plugins that are likely to
work<br>
across various Linux systems is to vendor and/or statically
link nearly<br>
- but not quite - everything. Even then, libc
incompatibilities and<br>
such can get you. Lignux is a notoriously awful platform for<br>
distributing binaries, but the constrained scope of plugins
means you<br>
can pull it off. It takes some work and know-how, though, and
the<br>
default build you get out of whatever build system on whatever<br>
distribution won't do it.<br>
<br>
Architecture-wise, x64, arm32, and aarch64 certainly covers
well over<br>
70% of needs in practice. LV2 is also used on Windows and
MacOS,<br>
although much less than on Linux (or POSIX in general).<br>
<br>
> To sum up, I would like to understand how much effort we
should<br>
> dedicate to Patchstorage and LV2 questions - should we
stick to<br>
> covering just MOD-based-projects needs, and that’s it, or
with your<br>
> help, we could achieve something that would be a great
boost for the<br>
> entire LV2 ecosystem?<br>
<br>
The above-mentioned preset idea seems like a much easier thing
to<br>
establish to me, although I don't know if the current site
structure<br>
meshes with that so well since there's a vast number of
"projects"<br>
(plugins) that they could fall under.<br>
<br>
Otherwise, the problem of making it easy to provide solid
binary builds<br>
for "all" platforms (and test them somewhat, to at least be
sure<br>
they're likely to load at all) is still just, well... there.
A website<br>
to upload the results to doesn't seem to do much for most
developers<br>
who don't already have such infrastructure set up.<br>
<br>
It would be nice, though, for whatever that's worth.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
dr<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
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<br>
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